DMG Ultrasonic in my future....

Discussion in 'CNC Machines' started by DMC, May 12, 2015.

  1. DMC

    DMC Scott Hudson

    You mention large mills.....maybe you are trying to refer to the HAAS UMC750ss I posted about?

    Well, I absolutely need every millimeter of the 24" workspace to mill 16 Dentures.

    The tolerance for Dentures is +/- a LOT!!!! lol We can be off by a mile and no harm.

    Not necessary for CNC mill to have 1um or less Glass Scales....but rather 10um mechanical resolution is just fine! +/- 20um accuracy is absolutely great for this application of Dentures.

    It is a piece of plastic to fit onto flexible soft-tissue. Not titanium. Not Aerospace assemble of Rocket-Ship.

    What are you even trying to say? That mill is the correct mill for the job I want it to accomplish.

    Thanks for your "opinions" I guess? Welcome to the CAD forum of Dental!!

    Good luck on the sales.
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2016
  2. DMC

    DMC Scott Hudson

    You notice my mill uses Square stock of Titanium. Probably less than your $45/lb round stock you are proud of?


    You are a Millionaire now for sure I suppose with all that amazing knowledge? Right?
  3. cncswiss1

    cncswiss1 New Member

    no sir, unfortunately i have Kids to fix that.

    the square stock is slick, I have avoided plate stock due to the stress i found when testing for cervical plate work some time ago, it makes sense that dental parts are small enough to avoid that issue, I'll have to whip up a fixture to try.

    we equip our machines with various lasers and touch probes, but the bottom line even with spinning and goofing around it;s hard to get 100% reliable tool break checks that are FAST- in production on 408's abutments are normally sub 10 minutes, some as quick as 6- no time to fool around with spinning and dripping. again respectfully i know tha is all opinion, there are a million ways to do it.

    I have no problem writing NC macros.

    as to the abutment process, what orientation in the bar do you assume I am using? I respectfully decline to give away our processes.

    I'm just a humble self taught redneck that happened to be blessed to play with cool machine tools for over a couple of decades.
    again, there is plenty of room for all to do their thing and civilly disagree without flaming or other trolling.

    edits to fix sloppy BB code by me
    DMC likes this.
  4. DMC

    DMC Scott Hudson


    Explain how to mill (turn) this abutment......(on 308b)

    It is impossible from One side! o_O

    I don't care how smart you think you are, or how many years experience you have in this field, or Aerospace. You are just not understanding the basics of Physics and geometry from my point of view.

    It is not possible. You would need a lollie-pop tool so small of a shank, that I do not think it even exist! Beyond the Material Science available today needed to create such a tool.

    The shank would bend and/or break, I would think, no?
    How would you cut an accurate hole diameter with a bent tool after preaching to us about accuracy?

    (You now follow me? You know the Lollie-pop with cutting diameter greater than shank size, right?)
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2016
  5. DMC

    DMC Scott Hudson

    Hex on the Right side.....(SUPER common for Dental Abutments)

    I cut abutment CAD file into half to see internal Geometry.

    Of course, we CNC mill and corners need radius applied to match our tooling for the internal Hex.

    You notice the radius at the corners I assume? (of the Internal Hex at Right side?)
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2016
  6. DMC

    DMC Scott Hudson

    I dropped out of high-school and own millions in manufacturing equipment.

    All of them I repair and modify myself. My HAAS is my own creation.

    We modify everything. (or build custom)

    Self-taught redneck as well currently wearing bedroom slippers and Primus T-shirt drinking a beer at work, but a Millionaire.

    Yesterday, I wore my wife's Purple underwear because I have very few myself and all mine were dirty.

    Last edited: Feb 3, 2016
    James likes this.
  7. DMC

    DMC Scott Hudson

    We try touch probes for years. I have many I can send you for FREE!
    Top of the line stuff!! Knock yourself out! lol

    I love my Renishaw Laser and it give me no issues at all if you set it up correctly, and use good Macros.

    Never will I go back to touch-probe.
  8. DMC

    DMC Scott Hudson

    With a real Swiss turning center, this is possible.

    You use a stationary cutter to go inside the hole from the right side, and simply turn the larger diameter hole with the step (or sometimes a chamfer)

    But, with 308b we are missing the normal turning tools, and only have spindle.

    It is not a good solution for anything in Dental?

    It is a great machine!! And I have great respect for Willemin. But, wrong machine for Dental.

    Do not try to say it does things that are not possible. There is much better solution at much lower cost., with much faster and more accurate results.

    The End of the 308b discussion, I think?
  9. DMC

    DMC Scott Hudson

    Sorry for my attitude.

    Everyone in Dental knows I am jackass on internet! (Global Reputation!)

    You are certainly welcome here and now pass my test!

    What a nice guy!!


    I am, "Scotty" and this is my non-profit Dental CAD/CAM forum.

    Take it or ?? leave it? lol

    But you are welcome to stay and post anything you desire without restrictions.

    For example.....Shit, Fuck , you Douche-bag. Ass-wipe, etc....

    Last edited: Feb 3, 2016
  10. DMC

    DMC Scott Hudson

    Willemin are awesome machines!!!

    Mucho respect!

  11. DMC

    DMC Scott Hudson

    I am One of the few who might consider your products in the US.
    So, better start to convince me!


    Mass-production of identical products is good for swiss turning.

    Custom, One-of-a-kind Abutments.....ah, not so much.

    Better for milling on HAAS CNC.

    Just like Glidwell. The largest lab.

    The 308b.....?? I dunno what that is for? Not custom abutments.
  12. cncswiss1

    cncswiss1 New Member

    We have many processes- and don't confuse Swiss made with Swiss turn sliding headstock style machines are very different

    We have many dental processes- some turn the abutment sideways in the bar and use the same tab technique you use and picking Off to the basket

    For axial orentation on the ID counterbore a simple key seat cutter or necked back endmill works great
    A website with a picture handy ;

    On the 408 the spindle itself is an axis allowing for rotary Girolle style cutting for internal back angled stuff that is off axis (cannot be turned)

    Typing on a tiny tablet is too annoying (at kids practice) I'll get back in the AM

    DMC likes this.
  13. DMC

    DMC Scott Hudson


    Sounds good.

    We use Harvey Tools, and now I agree with your answer.

    Well done sir!

    You got me. I was totally wrong.
  14. DMC

    DMC Scott Hudson

    So, it is possible.....but why?

    What is advantage of milling/turning One abutment at a time in this bar stock?

    Why not just mill 20-30 abutments from a square blank?

    I still do not understand the benefit. Not easier or cheaper or much faster (if at all?)

    Why not just buy 10 HAAS mills and produce 10x the output for same price?

    With easier CAM solution as well.


    We try for years to use the Renishaw touch probe with little tools and find it is not good solution as well.
    You cannot measure the diameter of tiny tools on that thing.
    You instantly ruin the cutting edge if spinning a little tool and hit that chunk of metal from side to try and measure the diameter including T.I.R.

  15. DMC

    DMC Scott Hudson

    We have our HAAS really dialed down slow.
    What I mean is, Normally the HAAS is delivered to customer with Maximum Corner Rounding (Radius) of 0.05" or approx. 1.25mm
    With this, then the HAAS is fast, but too sloppy for Implants.

    We lower to 0.050mm and now machine is much slower but very accurate.
    The corner is not actually rounded by 0.050 , even though this is what the controller says.
    It is very close to perfect corner and CNC mill almost come to dead stop at the corner.

    This, and about 50 other changes to the CNC controller are necessary.
    Dead Zone, Backlash, PID settings for Servo motor controllers, etc all must be measured and improved for accuracy and correct dynamics. It takes a couple days to set-up a fresh mill minimum.

    For me, it takes us up to 30 minutes per abutment. Sometimes close to 20 minutes....but not that often.
    Usually closer to 30 minutes. This is milling 20-30 abutments in One session.

    With stronger frame, like Willemin and DMG....we can fly through the corner much faster and still have same results because the frame just kicks-ass and is strong enough to maintain positioning accuracy at much higher speeds.

    But, is it worth it?? The Value of the cost vs/ speed or output for the parts??

    I dunno how to measure the natural frequency of harmonics and ?? of my HAAS.
    It is not like any other HAAS. We re-arrange the 4th/5th axis trunnion 90 degrees from what everyone else does....we hold it to table much differently.

    I do know that my DMG has auto-tune and machine listen to the spindle and frame and adjust on-the-fly the feeds and RPMs to have better results. I find that very cool feature myself. Kinda like Knock-detection on a race engine and lower timing or increase fuel/air ratio to avoid detonation.
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2016
  16. cncswiss1

    cncswiss1 New Member

    10 haas? they are $25-30K each? wow that IS affordable.

    I find autotune useless on tools smaller than 10mm (from spinal implant setup testing) I just couldn't induce enough vibration with tools 4mm and smaller. again results may vary- now on drill tap center (fanuc Robodrill and the like) with BT30 tapers i can get some serious singing with 4mm tools. once again plenty of ways to skin that cat to suit the fancy of anyone.

    the "haas corner rounding" is adjusted by the HPCC/AICC smoothing value on Fanuc controls, you choose in your NC code the style of smoothing and acceleration- R1 = drive like a teenager/ R10 drive like grandpa- and 8 variations in between. Controlling both the bell shaped acceleration and corner smoothing.

    the single part process with the robot to unload single parts is to satisfy FDA GMP (21CFR820.140) for class 2 devices. Although there are ways to do the exact same thing with batch processing, this just makes it way easier, and as we all know, you never know how picky or manufacturing savvy the particular FDA inspector is during an audit. I once had a 3 day audit at a Spine implant facility (primarily milling and turning of metals F-136/138/562/1472 etc..) done by an auditor with only pet food manufacturing experience. So, for me, simple solutions proved easier to validate and document.

    I personally like the Blum NTH 3d best, but in reality cost is an issue, the TS-27 is cheap and reliable, and spinning the tools backwards prevents damage if you want to measure diameter. the nice part of a TS is the ability to measure turning tools as well. I do like lasers, and use them on a daily basis. its all preference and price VS performance. potāto potăto

    DMC likes this.
  17. DMC

    DMC Scott Hudson

    308b is under $500k ?

    Someone told me closer to 1,000,000

    Sounds good. I'll take Two!

    Where are you located?
  18. cncswiss1

    cncswiss1 New Member

    are you going to Lab Day Chicago?
    even the fully decked out production lab 408's are well under a mil.
  19. cncswiss1

    cncswiss1 New Member

    308's start under 250 - like the one i am bringing to Lab Day Chicago-
    adding robot automation adds another ~100
    DMC likes this.
  20. DMC

    DMC Scott Hudson

    I never have been to Chicago in my 26yrs in this industry.

    Maybe this is the year to go??

    You can touch a custom abutment with your fingers. Of Course!!

    We commonly polish and anodize after CNC work is done.

    I think you are getting cornfused with machining the actual implant that goes into the bone.

    That needs to be super sterile of course. We just make the top abutment part.

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